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Welcome to Voices in Local Government, an ICMA podcast. My name is Joe Superville and today we're trying out a new format. Instead of a deep dive on one topic, our guests will offer ideas and advice on real -world local government dilemmas about careers,
dynamics with co -workers, residents, even politicians, kind of people problems that can't always be fixed by technical knowledge. And situations and solutions are unique, so we're not trying to solve your exact problem,
this is we're trying to get the audience to think about what options they have or what might be the next best step for them to figure out their unique case. You can also play long at home by kind of thinking about how you'd answer these if a colleague or friend asked you for the same type of professional advice and if you've got a great angle or idea that we didn't cover email us at podcast @icma .org and we may
share it next time. Also send us your questions. All messages will stay anonymous. So, here to answer three questions are Catherine Caffrey, principal and founder of NavVis Consulting and longtime deputy city manager of Cedar Park,
Texas, and Jeff Jenkins, deputy city manager, city of Taylor, Texas. Welcome. Hi, Joe. Thanks for having us. Thanks, Joe. All right. We're going to get right into the three questions.
Question number one. And this is a, this is a big one that you might have some experience with recently. When do I know it's time to leave my organization for other opportunities or am I better off sticking around and seeing what opens up?
Jeff, you want to start? All right. I'll give this one a try, Joe. Joe, how'd you get your last name, by the way? Super, super bill. I mean, that is a cool last name. Thank you. It's,
uh, it's super velling. It's mispronounced and misspelled all the time because there's the X for you before that I'm so I'm feeling like a super city manager now. Maybe No,
great great question. Yeah, I've been in city management for about 20 years I started off in the small cities and kind of worked my way up to larger cities and I Just I just think that in general you just got a kind of look at what your career goals are.
What do you, as far as growth and opportunity, when I was younger, I said, well, I don't want to work out in more of a rural environment. I wanted to work in your metro area,
but you have to take some of those opportunities that, that to build that experience. And so that's where I started off. I actually started in the Texas Panhandle.
and then worked my way Dallas Metroplex and now in the Austin Metro. So that's one thing is what are your career goals? What are you thinking as far as growth?
And then how's your job satisfaction level? I mean, are you having the Sundays every Sunday? I mean, that's, and then you're having the Mondays every Mondays,
you know, like the movie. So I look at things like that. mean, it should be a lot more irregular When that happens, but we all have it happen from time to time. Are you enjoying the projects?
You know, like here in Taylor I've got to do some really cool projects and working with the cool team that we have on board here And it just it just makes the makes the job exciting all the Impact one example,
I'll give Fred Curley he actually is an Olympic medalist. I got to work on a project where it was a mural on one of our water towers here in town and that was just really cool getting to put that together,
talk to his agent Monaco trying to get you know get that set up. So that's another area. How's your family doing? You know is your family, are they are there opportunities for them?
Because they're on this journey with you and it can be very hard to move people around and So how are they doing? You know, there's some opportunities to build and being in a community That's one thing here in Taylor.
My wife really enjoys some of the some of the folks she interacts with on a Daily basis and stories she hears and some of the fun she gets to have with with some of those folks and then a couple other points Opportunities in this field.
There's there's some opportunities they don't come along every day so if you are thinking about you know hey i would like to work for this town or you've targeted certain places they come open you know you should explore that opportunity because they don't come or come across and you're wanting that opportunity to to be the leader for that group um you should you should explore it and then lastly um i would say just
kind of your overall job satisfaction. How are you feeling? You know, is it something again, are you excited about? And I tell you what, I built a help build the team here in Taylor,
and it just gets gives me every week you get to keep me going. I'm just so excited just to get a chance to interact and work with them and our council. And that's that's that's part of the fun for me.
Catherine, what do you think? Yeah, I mean, I feel like when I was directly managing people, I would get this question all the time, especially from sort of early,
I mean, I guess I'll talk about kind of early and mid career folks first, and then I'll talk about senior level people after because a that really affects me. And I've just gone through that as a senior level person. But,
you know, I think some of those folks that are maybe in their first 10, 12 years of their career, this is a really common kind of thing they tackle. So they, you know, they've been in the job for a couple of years,
they want, they're very ambitious, they're very motivated to keep moving up in their career. And sometimes there can be this sense of like, am I moving up fast enough? Or are things going pace they're supposed to go for my career?
And I think a couple of things like a piece of advice, I got one. when I was early in my career and sort of facing this was, do you feel like your organization is on the way up or not?
You know, Jeff sort of mentioned that with like, you know, are you enjoying it? Are the projects good? Obviously, all cities are great, but we also know some cities are really on kind of this upward trajectory.
For whatever reason, something's happening in their community that like, there are a lot of exciting things happening. or they're in the midst of it and then there's definitely other places that maybe that isn't the case or maybe it's you know a a downtime or something and so I think my first question to that person would be do you feel like your organization is on the way up or not and if it is on the way up you
might want to like kind of cool your jets on the patience part and and really like be a little more patient and and and see how things are really going and Then the other thing I'd say is that you know have others in your organization moved up Do you see other people in the other people in the organization who had one job and then you know had internal Opportunities to move forward or not is there a culture of
that some places? That's really common some places There's just really a preference for always hiring external and so I think that's sort of a good thing to take into mind. And then the last thing I'd say is like, does this organization feel like a fit for you?
'Cause I definitely have come across people earlier in their career who are maybe trying to like force whatever that phrase is, like a square peg into a round hole or whatever. And if they're really honest,
I don't know if this is the place they wanna be. And so I think just kind of having that like honest check with yourself is pretty important. - Can I ask a question? that followed there though? Yeah, go ahead. You mentioned motivated or ambitious.
How do you figure out that versus, well, that person's just entitled or impatient and they're expecting to move up or get this promotion or whatever it might be earlier and they might feel justified and though,
yeah, the work's good, but hey, from the manager's point of view or the ACAO, yeah, they're on the right track, but they're not there yet. And that's not an easy conversation either. How do you how do you judge that? How do you communicate that?
I think that really is the fit component because I definitely would have employees who are just that situation and sometimes there's this hesitation from managers and I get it because it's a hard conversation to have to be really direct with somebody but over the years I found kind honesty was worth a lot more than when I would kind of beat around the bush with some employee.
So I think it really is, if I was that manager, I think you have a responsibility to that employee if they're asking you in an honest and genuine way to be candid. Do you see a place for them in the organization or do you not?
Or if you do see a place for them, is it maybe in this area that they were kind of thinking it was gonna be this? You know, I think something that's really common. common and it's different everywhere, but, you know,
there's a lot of people that want to go into city management that doesn't necessarily mean maybe necessarily they should be in city management at every organization, you know,
places are different, like what the culture is, what the norms are. And so yeah, I think there really does have to be this responsibility if you're that employee with that ambition to ask and ask for honest feedback,
but then also be prepared to kind of hear it. And if you're a manager, do that employee a favor and give them that feedback. Where are they good? Where are they maybe struggling? Do you see a place for them?
Is it just a matter of time? Or is it, man, I don't know if we're the right spot for you? And that's not necessarily just for the annual performance evaluation, right? That's a kind of thing that should be ongoing so everyone can hopefully be on the same page and then it's not so jarring if the answer is.
Harsh or the reality is harsh. Yeah, I would agree with I would add to that And I agree totally with that is it's great to reach out to mentors or others in the field that you can bounce some of these things off of I I really appreciate it when I go to either ICMA or TCMA event and I'll have younger managers They'll they'll just ask me a question or hey,
can you go have coffee sometime? Can we talk about this?" Because you can really get a lot of good guidance on maybe, "Am I on the right track?" Maybe what are some areas I can improve upon.
I also felt earlier in my career that I saw it as an adventure. I wanted to go to those small towns that people didn't think could be managed.
You know? And ... was a fun adventure for me. And that's another thing maybe to think about as Katherine was alluding to on fit, you know, are you in for an adventure like that?
And there may be chances that you progress a little bit faster in your career because you went out for those adventures because people will see that and go, hey,
you know, I may want to hire this person today. an ACM for my larger organization because of some of these things that this person did early on in some tough places." The hard part is you have to make the choices.
Personally, do you want to live in some of those places? Do you want to go to some of those places? And that's the hard part for, I think there's a expectation for some folks that, "Hey,
I got my NPA. I've been an ACM for a long time." know, position in a larger city, I'm going to jump to the CEM or the ACM really quick.
And that's not reality. There, it's, you know, it's better to have more of that background to try to help you get there quicker. That's, that's one of your goals. And it takes time.
Yeah, I mean, that's such a you definitely it does not happen as quickly as some people think it's going. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. >> And then I think like, if you don't mind, I want to sort of like touch on people later in their career who was sort of,
just like, A, I personally just made this career going well, as soon as. Yeah, so I think when you're later in your career, definitely that's where the stuff Jeff brought up about your family really comes into play.
Earlier in my career, it was a lot easier to be super flexible and do whatever. And then you get to a place in your life where maybe. that's a little harder. So I think the what I am learning myself as someone who made the really hard choice to leave Cedar Park after 16 years,
it was a great organization, great gig, love those people, you know, it's been interesting as the my job was posted and people would reach out to me about it and I'd be like, it's a great job, you should definitely apply.
That says a lot about them and you I think that that's where you're at. Yeah. I mean, I was like, you should definitely apply for that to greater organization. But I think sometimes when you're later on in your career, it's okay if you take a detour.
You know, I didn't think years ago I would go do consulting or start my own consulting practice. That was definitely nothing I ever thought of. But over the last year or two with like a really young kid and a husband who travels a lot for work,
like it just felt like this was a good choice. And I do want to like mention this as an example. A few weeks ago, I had lunch with Jeff and his kind of like counterpart, his other assistant city manager there, Tom Yantis.
And Tom has actually had this career where he has done stints in the private sector and public sector and sort of gone back and forth. And it was just so reassuring and helpful to hear somebody who had,
you know, showed you can kind of do both and go back and forth. And it was just so reassuring and helpful to hear somebody who had done stints in the private sector and public sector and public sector and public sector and public sector. that exit is more important than your entrance in many ways and how you handle it.
But, you know, you never know what the future is going to hold and sometimes like life makes decisions for you to and that really can impact what you decide you want to do. All right, great information.
Let's move on. question number two. I've been the ACAO in a medium -sized town for six years. Recently they created a new second ACAO position. The new hire has a few more years experience.
The exact split of responsibilities is still unclear and while this will eventually help ease my workload, I'm tasked with training this person who will likely end up competing when the CAO position eventually becomes open.
How do I balance being a team player with my personal goals? Katherine, you want to start on this one? Yeah, that one, I've definitely experienced that before at other points in my life,
not necessarily an ACM role, but sort of a somebody new enters and you're like, ooh, they might be better than me. And so it definitely can be humbling,
but [BLANK _AUDIO] think this is an opportunity like if you really want to like grow as a human and be the person you should be you should really always want the very best people to be at your organization even if they give you a little bit of like a run for your money and then especially also if you're you know this example sort of appear but even when you're hiring people sometimes you will especially if you're
hiring department heads or something I mean it's not uncommon you sort of get this rock star and you maybe have a moment of like, ooh, what is this gonna mean for me? But really the right thing to do is like, the more rock stars in your organization,
the better off everybody is. And I think that if you feel that paying of like, uh -oh, what if now I've got some competition, A, you don't know what's going on really in that person's life or what their plans are,
so don't make assumptions you don't know yet. But also like, focus on yourself. you know I feel like this is the stuff I tell my seven -year -old all the time when he compares himself to other kids but it's like it's true focus on you you know like what are you get at what are your skills what are your strengths what are your relationships like in the organization are they as strong as they can be you know focus on
you and then focus on forming a relationship with this new person because you have no idea what the future holds but your career is better off and your whole organization is better off with the more like,
you know, A level players you have. What do you think, Jeff? Have you come across this? Well, great. I mean, great question. I've experienced it as well. I guess a little background on myself.
I've taken the intergram, and I'm an achiever, and I'm the first to admit, I'm the first jealousy tendencies. I have some,
I hate to lose. When I played basketball in high school, I was, I hated to lose. Or if anybody was ahead of me on the depth chart, I was just,
how can I change that? And so I've really had to work on that over time. And, you know, we talked about, you know, when you hire a new, ACM tree,
add a new ACM, and I know when we first hired Tom Yantas, that was one for me that kind of, I mean, Tom, I think we're all rock stars on the team and you want everyone to succeed.
And I think you just have to re -approach that with a positive and proactive mindset. I mean, with Tom, you know, he's, I think in the years, he definitely has more years.
of experience and a lot more well -known in the community and the ICMA world and development community than I am. And so yeah, at first you have a little bit of jealousy,
but you got to reframe that and re -approach that. Focus on, like how Catherine was saying, focus on yourself where are some areas is that I can improve myself.
to make myself even a better manager or a person. How can you look at, you know, expanding your role? Are there some cool projects or something?
I know here in Taylor, because we're smaller, there's gaps sometimes where you don't know who's covering that component or that area of work. And I'll insert myself in some of those areas or expand upon.
some things we're doing so that, you know, it helps me grow as an employee and then also give you a little bit more security in your position because you're involved in a lot more.
To me, I like to work on collaborating with that new person and there's ideas sometimes where Tom and I will, like, he's thinking one thing and I'm thinking another.
and we'll get in a crisis moment that we've had here in Taylor and we collaborated together and if I didn't have the idea and he didn't have the follow -up approach,
it might not have worked. So I think in the end it's a good thing. Definitely understand the concern of the question but reframe it to a positive and how can you make it work best best for you in the organization because if you focus on that the organization will see it and your your superiors will see what you're doing.
Yeah Jeff I like that honesty because there's human emotions all the time even people understand well you obviously can't just sabotage or be negative because that's going to make it worse for everyone and look bad on you no one would do that well hopefully no one would do that you don't have to just dismiss those hesitations Maybe you just got to figure out,
as you said, to reframe it positively. And you mentioned basketball and the competitive spirit. I'll give you maybe a forced sports analogy, but if the manager is like the star of the basketball team,
and maybe the point guard, the ball has the ball in their hands all the time, making the decisions, and you're the maybe number one supportive role, having that second or now third person on the team is an adjustment because you might get less shot.
you might get this you might get that but if you're supporting the team effort and the wins go up whether it's the coach or the owner or whatever in this metaphor it's like they they see what you're doing and see the value in it either way and it could go the other way you could be that you could be the new person the listeners out there coming in with a title that's whatever it is and the people there are
thinking like alright I'm glad to have some some more support around here, but also, uh -oh, this is this is odd. So it's also maybe on that, the incoming person to proactively build those relationships.
And I feel like no matter what, there's like never a shortage of work in local government. So, you know, when Jeff talks about reframing it, it's also like another set of really capable hands to help you with probably an overflowing amount of work and problems.
and projects. I mean, I'd rather get somebody who could help really make an impact on workload than hiring somebody that is unqualified, not really that great in your life.
Yeah. And I think part of that question too is kind of hinting at, well, I've already got that full workload. Adding training, formal training for this person is a big ask,
but hopefully that's an investment. for the whole team and it will pay off later as you can then start focusing on what you want to and where you can contribute. - The other thing with Tom, great manager,
Tom Yantis, but I actually wrote this last year along with our communication person, an award for him to be assistant of the year in the state of Texas and he actually got,
he's gonna get awarded that in June. June. So that's, you know, Tom's getting this award for this, this recognition and, and it feels really good, you know, knowing that, hey,
I helped write this, this award and he's going to get this recognition. Jeff, I feel like we find it well deserved for your work time. So either we should tell Tom and get some like, we probably should add royalties for him or like don't tell Tom so he doesn't like may have these people.
out of podcasts and was talking about how great I am. - First of all, there's no money in this. So there's no royalties to be shared. And second, yeah, this might just make the approval process even more difficult if we got to get his sign off.
It's all good things so far. And this is also a good opportunity to remind the audience, so far we're getting a lot of questions from guests and staff and I'm writing a few, but we want questions from the audience,
but that, that one was not from Jeff that story just worked out perfectly the way the way he had that and how it worked out with his co -workers there so it was not a planted question. No, no.
This is local government so that's how it goes. All right, third question here and this is maybe where it gets a little a little dicey with the council but the question reads what's the best way for an ACAO to gain experience?
working with the council without overstepping the CAO? That's the question. I'll just add, I know there might be different policies, different places where it's like, don't interact at all versus like,
yes, I need you to interact because I can't keep up with all this. So probably case by case on just if you're the ACAO or anyone underneath department head, mid -level person, ask maybe first, but in your experience,
Catherine and Jeff, how did you do that? the council, but also, again, going back to that career development, how are you gaining that experience without kind of just pushing too far as you in the future maybe want to move up to the top seat?
Yeah. Catherine, go ahead. Yeah. This is one I mean, I'm sure Jeff has dealt with also his fair share of it because when you're sort of number two in an organization, I mean, you are real close.
I have a couple thoughts. One, you know, you sort of said Joe at the beginning like don't, you know, you don't want to overstep the city manager or the city administrator's role and that is so key. Like they set kind of the practices of like what they want that interaction to look like.
And the other thing that I think is important to remind yourself is that almost always the city manager has the most information about the council because really if you want to kind of get yourself to be well viewed by the council and show them what you're capable of doing you know obviously take the lead from your manager but find out what's important to the council and then raise your hand to go work on that right
so it's like that's not really rocket science but where I think that can get dicey is the city manager will know well yeah maybe that one person is talking about that is their biggest wish and goal but I know four of them don't want to work on it.
So like knowing those unwritten and kind of hidden dynamics, you could get yourself into a really bad spot if you're like out on a limb thinking you're pleasing the council,
but you're really only working on one person's pet project. And so I think, I mean, gosh, being in lockstep with your manager on what a council member said to you,
what they asked you to do, and that manager then really only working on one person's pet project. let me calibrate that request with the whole group and what I know are kind of their individual pain points issues dynamics with each other which you know what you see on the dais is never really what the real dynamic is amongst them.
So I mean I think at base level if you want to sort of grow in council's favor work on things that are high -profile and that you can sort of show your contributions. That just,
man, you've got to coordinate with that city manager about how that goes. 'Cause I've definitely had, in my experience, times where maybe a council member just would approach me privately about something and they don't usually do it out of like malice or any ill intention.
They just like you or, you know, thank you. be good at it, but you have to really step delicately or you can get into such a bad spot with those relationships there.
Man, I could go on and on about council relationships, but I'll pause. Jeff, what do you think? You hit on some great points, Catherine. I mean, there's, yeah,
I think with our city manager, Brian LeBord, we, we, he likes to have that. and it starts off how does the manager want to approach these relationships and he likes to have open dialogue so we'll have council members they they will contact me or or him or or or ACM and even double Hartman director he's fine with that it's just keeping that that loop that communication loop at 360 where everybody's in the next So if
it's something that comes up Like Katherine said, they mean well council members if they're wanting to step into something that's a little bit too far You know, I might say well,
let me let me take a step back there. Let me let me follow up on that one you know, I want to make sure leading toward the Where we're wanting to go as far as the goal and and there may be a conversation maybe had with them that that he you know needs to let me know and we do that pretty regularly he'll come in my office and I think we had it even yesterday where he had a conversation with not somebody on
council but something I was working on that he was like hey I need to let you know I ran into this and and then we we collaborate so the big thing is support and the city manager you know they're they're got a tough job,
you know, they need somebody to advise them on approaches. Someone who could be their confidant. I mean, there's there's times where, you know, you're looking around, and it looks kind of bleak sometimes in our field.
But at the end of the day, you can get together as a team. And you can conquer, you can conquer the world or conquer any environment working together as a team. And so I think that's that's of that collaboration.
And then, you know, again, check in and then advocating. That's another one that I like to do is you advocate what the managers approaches are or what the team approaches is and then try to build that trust bond.
Because if you're able to build that trust bond with counsel, you can do a lot having trust. I mean, you can. it's like our currency and city management world because they want it done right and they want it done in a trustful way you know they like that trust environment.
So if you too run into a council member especially in the smaller towns might even be more applicable but if you just you know it could be the grocery store it could be the town festival whatever it is even even the even just the hallways in there Do you try and follow up that next Monday or that next work day with an email or some type of something to get it on the record?
So it's not, well, hey, so, you know, I bumped into Catherine and she said X, Y, and Z, but maybe you really only said half of that or they took it the wrong way. How do you balance being polite and personable with making sure it's still kind of by the book?
I think, I would all because I mean I'm sure like Jeff you do see them all the time if I just saw them in passing and it was just that chatting about whether or whatever you know like random life stuff I mean I'd maybe like mention it to my manager but like no big deal definitely if I ever got something substantive or that and the council doesn't even know they're doing it necessarily but like if anything that
kind of could be perceived as direction, I always went to my manager and told her. And, you know, sometimes she would then have the really uncomfortable conversation, you know, in our organization,
she really liked things to go directly through her, and that was who she wanted communication to go to. And so, you know, she would have that conversation with them of like, hey, heard you asked this person to do this,
I prefer to be like this. And so kind of. kind of like report her. I don't know if I'd necessarily do an email, but I just 'cause you don't want to maybe overly formalize it, but I would definitely like let her know in a like timely fashion.
And I think also like, you know, I'm sure Jeff will jump in in a second, but also what can happen sometimes with counsel that gets a little dicey is you spend so much time with them and the relationships can feel really good.
so like friend ish. But it's not, you know, you're not friends, you work for whomever is elected. And that can be very jarring for the council member,
you know, when, when elections happen, and they see you being just as friendly to some new person that got elected, they don't like as you are to them. And that can kind of put you in an odd situation too.
So I think just being really treating them all the same, your justice, you work for whomever is elected, being just as friendly is really important 'cause I feel like the council members themselves can sometimes think the relationships are more personal or friendly than they really are.
And that can be kind of an odd dynamic. I feel like it's unique sort of to this world. Yeah, I would agree with that. Yeah, I'm a very friendly person and I get a lot of that.
And again, that goes along with trust, building relationships. I mean, you're in the trenches with these individuals, you're in the arena, you know, like the Roosevelt speech with them all the time.
And so it, and then you're answering the questions, you're going to events. I'll never forget one time I went to an event and I was surprised they still had it, but the school was having a fundraiser and it was 50 degrees outside.
The wind was blowing 30 miles an hour and we got to take turns in a dunking booth and the mayor was first and I was second. And yeah, there was some,
you know, some, how did we get through that moment, you know, afterwards. afterwards? I think I broke a record I had like they'd never seen I was egging on the kids I was telling them you can't you can't dump me and I ended up having to dump like 40 to 50 times and I Realized I I don't need to skip leg day any anymore anytime soon But but so you're you're in those kind of situations with them,
you know and and you know you're Given speeches, you know you're, you're doing speech writing with them. And so, yeah, to me, I just been friendly with everyone,
and then being my authentic self, I'm going to give the recommendation, no matter if you're my friend, or, or you're on Council, I'm going to give you guidance how I see it,
and, and we'll just move forward. And then your original question about, you know, how do you how do you deal with them? You know, if you're asked a question, I usually don't send an email.
Usually every Monday, we have like a update meeting and we'll talk about things. If it's really severe, then or a little bit more constructive, then I might do it sooner,
might reach out with a phone call. But, but yeah, we have little check -ins about once a once a week. And it depends on how your manager Some may want immediate,
like a text or something, or maybe something that it can wait a couple of days if it's not something major. Yeah, so it's not always a big deal,
just kind of what they're expecting and then when the time is right to say anything. But I always imagine the hallways of town hall or, again, like the grocery store. So meeting the mayor or other electeds at a dunking booth in 50 degree weather is an interesting one.
- Yeah, yeah, you're just like, how did we survive this? And, you know, yeah, yeah, it's-- - Well, that's a good way to build trust. That's a real conversation. - When you're standing there freezing wet.
Maybe like politics elsewhere. So, Catherine Jeff, thanks for your advice on council careers and everything in between. Thanks for joining us today. You bet. Thanks for having us.
Yeah, thank you, Joe. It was fun.
Have a workplace situation you are seeking or offering advice on? Send questions, topics, or guest interest to: podcast@icma.org.
Guests
Katherine Caffrey, principal & founder, NAVIS Consulting, former ACAO
Jeff Jenkins, deputy city manager, Taylor, Texas
Three Question Local Gov Life Advice
(1:17) Question 1: “When do I know it’s time to leave my organization for other opportunities? Or am I better off sticking around and seeing what opens up?”
(13:49) Question 2: "I've been the ACAO in a medium-sized town for six years. Recently they created a new second ACAO position. The new hire has a few more years experience. The exact split of responsibilities is unclear. And while this will eventually help ease my workload, I'm tasked with training this person who will likely end up competing when the CAO position eventually becomes open. How do I balance being a team player with my personal goals?
(22:20) Question 3: "What’s the best way for an ACAO to gain experience working with council without overstepping the CAO"
Resources
email podcast@icma.org to send questions or ideas for the next Local Gov Life Advice.